Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights. Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as well.

I've been looking at a few gliders and read a lot of reviews but still would like some more information besides club members and a few websites.

Currently I have an eye out for these few (in order of current interest):
DG-100/101, LS-1f, Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19

I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.

My ambitions are 300-400km+ flights, some local competitions for fun but nothing too serious. Easy rigging is a plus. Budget would be between 10-20k euro's.

What would you recommend me?

DG will be good handling, terrific visibility, and performance at bargain price, from what I see. You pay a real premium for an LS1f as compared to an LS1c or d. Are they really twice as good? Std Cirrus is a good deal on price and performance. Std Libelle seems to be climbing in price, maybe because of Club Class capability (handicap lower than performance is, so it is "competitive"?)? ASW19 is the heaviest of the bunch, but it is a Schleicher with terrific handling and attention to detail for the period.

Buy a good plane in a very good trailer!

Good luck!

Steve Leonard

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:10:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights.
> Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at
> 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as
> well.
>
.....
> What would you recommend me?
>
I have a similar history (first solo was my club's SZD Junior, then club
owned Pegase and Discus, then an ASW-20 and my current Std Libelle. Of
these I still like flying a Junior in winter, liked the Pegase more than
the Discii and prefer my Libelle to the ASW-20. The Libelle is a better
match with my flying style.

If you like flying the Junior, you'd probably also like the Libelle,
which goes like a Junior on steroids (cruises at up to 80 kts before
falling out of the shy compared with 60 kts for the Junior), both climb
equally well and the all-round view from the cockpit is much better than
the Junior. You sound as though sound as though you'd fit one too.
My notes about it may help you decide if a Libelle is for you:

https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/h201_notes.html

You might also consider an H.205 Club Libelle if you see one on offer.
There's one in my club: one of our instructors used to own it and thinks
it doesn't give much performance away to the H.201 Std Libelle. They are
a lot cheaper, too.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

All of the gliders you mention are good. You're not oversized so you should be comfortable in a Libelle. The DG's and the LS are fine ships but there is the service contract - I don't have a problem with it (my club owns a 300 that requires the contract and a 505 that doesn't) but it seems to upset many people. The 19 would be my preference, mostly because I think it's the prettiest of the bunch:-)

More important than the model is the particular glider. For example I love the ASW-19 but if the choice was a beat up 19 with a bad trailer versus a cherry Standard Cirrus in a Komet/Cobra clamshell, I would go for the Cirrus..

Take the one in the best condition and with a decent trailer.

Keeping this aside, I'd recommend an LS1-f. Others for sure will have their own opinion :-)

Reasons: It flies nicely, has a very good feel of the thermals, climbs well and is very responsive. Glide performance is a tiny bit better than the Std. Cirrus. Unless heavily repaired or modified with a tail weight, they have a minimum loading of 60kg. Easy to rig, wings are light (60-65kg). They are sensitive to bugs, though. And you might need a service contract. I had one for 7 years, my girlfriend also just bought one and is very happy with it.

Libelles climb well and provide a great view outside but controls are not that effective and nicely balanced as with the F. I personally did not like it that much.

ASW19 has nice and responsive handling, a roomy and sturdy cockpit, but not the same feel of the thermals as the F. It is not very sensitive to bugs and has good performance at high speeds. The wings are quite heavy (~70kg), but they are well built. Would be my second choice.

Standard Cirrus flies nicely but not as stable as the F. Has good feel of the thermals. It needs some more practice and you need to keep your hand at the stick most of the time (all-flying tail).

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:11:01 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights. Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as well.
>
> I've been looking at a few gliders and read a lot of reviews but still would like some more information besides club members and a few websites.
>
> Currently I have an eye out for these few (in order of current interest):
> DG-100/101, LS-1f, Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19
>
> I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.
>
> My ambitions are 300-400km+ flights, some local competitions for fun but nothing too serious. Easy rigging is a plus. Budget would be between 10-20k euro's.
>
> What would you recommend me?

Get a Libelle and thank me later. Just don't get tall like me.

> I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.

Sean-
You say you have experience in the Pegase. I am surprised you are considering the LS1, ASW-19, Standard Cirrus, DG-100 or Libelle. I have owned two Pegase gliders over the last 18 years, and in my opinion (yeah, MY opinion!) the Pegase outperforms all of the above. I have done a 500+ km flight (DRY!) in under 4 hours (on an exceptional Moriarty day) and have over a hundred 500 km flights.

I bought my first Pegase with about 60 hours in my logbook and since then have added another 2,400 hours, almost all in the Pegase. (In the US, we just call it the Pegasus.)

There are plenty of good things to say about all of the gliders you mentioned, but the Peg shouldn't be disregarded. With a full load of water, it runs acceptably. Not on the order of a Discus, but it tends to be half the price and I love the handling.

If you want to see my Pegase, check out the "Cloudstreet: Soaring the American West" video.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 02:22:04 UTC+1 schreef :
> > I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.
>
> Sean-
> You say you have experience in the Pegase. I am surprised you are considering the LS1, ASW-19, Standard Cirrus, DG-100 or Libelle. I have owned two Pegase gliders over the last 18 years, and in my opinion (yeah, MY opinion!) the Pegase outperforms all of the above. I have done a 500+ km flight (DRY!) in under 4 hours (on an exceptional Moriarty day) and have over a hundred 500 km flights.
>
> I bought my first Pegase with about 60 hours in my logbook and since then have added another 2,400 hours, almost all in the Pegase. (In the US, we just call it the Pegasus.)
>
> There are plenty of good things to say about all of the gliders you mentioned, but the Peg shouldn't be disregarded. With a full load of water, it runs acceptably. Not on the order of a Discus, but it tends to be half the price and I love the handling.
>
> If you want to see my Pegase, check out the "Cloudstreet: Soaring the American West" video.

I do have a few hours in the Pegase but they are slightly out of budget at about 5-10k more than I would like to spend.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 01:38:59 UTC+1 schreef Collin Shea:
> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:11:01 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights. Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as well.
> >
> > I've been looking at a few gliders and read a lot of reviews but still would like some more information besides club members and a few websites.
> >
> > Currently I have an eye out for these few (in order of current interest):
> > DG-100/101, LS-1f, Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19
> >
> > I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.
> >
> > My ambitions are 300-400km+ flights, some local competitions for fun but nothing too serious. Easy rigging is a plus. Budget would be between 10-20k euro's.
> >
> > What would you recommend me?
>
> Get a Libelle and thank me later. Just don't get tall like me.

After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?

Op donderdag 15 maart 2018 19:53:00 UTC+1 schreef :
> Take the one in the best condition and with a decent trailer.
>
> Keeping this aside, I'd recommend an LS1-f. Others for sure will have their own opinion :-)
>
> Reasons: It flies nicely, has a very good feel of the thermals, climbs well and is very responsive. Glide performance is a tiny bit better than the Std. Cirrus. Unless heavily repaired or modified with a tail weight, they have a minimum loading of 60kg. Easy to rig, wings are light (60-65kg). They are sensitive to bugs, though. And you might need a service contract. I had one for 7 years, my girlfriend also just bought one and is very happy with it.
>
> Libelles climb well and provide a great view outside but controls are not that effective and nicely balanced as with the F. I personally did not like it that much.
>
> ASW19 has nice and responsive handling, a roomy and sturdy cockpit, but not the same feel of the thermals as the F. It is not very sensitive to bugs and has good performance at high speeds. The wings are quite heavy (~70kg), but they are well built. Would be my second choice.
>
> Standard Cirrus flies nicely but not as stable as the F. Has good feel of the thermals. It needs some more practice and you need to keep your hand at the stick most of the time (all-flying tail).

The LS1-f looks very appealing, since you've had an LS1-f, what would you recommend to look out for when buying one? Nobody I know ever owned/owns an F, and I can't find much information on what to look out for. I know about the Service Contract with DG though.

Hi Senna,

not sure how good your German is, but I wrote a test about the LS1-f: https://www.segelflug.de/tests/LS1/index.html. Google translate might help, too.

If you have the chance, fly an LS4. The LS1-f is very similar - it has a bit higher control forces and an even better feel of the thermals.

As any glider of its vintage, an LS1-f has its flaws. Besides the usual items (gelcoat, cracks, paperwork). You should check the following items in particular:
- transition between vertical tail and fuselage boom: the bulkheads are a bit weak and tend to break or get loose. This is a quite common problem with the F. Check for cracks in the gelcoat. When rigged, twist the fuselage boom by slightly pushing the top of the vertical tail to the side. If it has a "soft" feel, there might be an issue. Preferrably take an LS1-f that has been repaired in this area. Unfortunately, the repair requires quite some work to do.
- if it sits low on the ground, the springs of the gear are worn and need to be replaced. This is an unexpensive fix (~120€ for the parts + 1 day of work)
- some F have the undercarriage modified to LS4 standard, containing a gas spring in the pushrod. This may wear, causing the gear to collapse. If you can, take someone who knows LS4 from your club. She or he should take a closer look at the whole gear assembly.
- as with many other gliders, the lift pins tend to wear over the years. During 3000h livetime extension, they often have to be replaced. Repair needs to be done in a professional workshop.
- check the play of the lift pins and how many washers are used to reduce it. It is okay to use up to 0.5mm of washers in total on all lift pins.
- check the canopy lifting mechanism for excessive play. Repairs may need some welding.
- levers of the main wing pins should be fastened. They are kept in place through rivets or screws which may loosen over time. It's an easy thing to repair.
- the forward attachment point of the horizontal stabilizer is done with a rod end. This has to be glued in place
- check how old the l'Hotellier connectors are. In EASA-land, they have to be replaced after max. 3000h (which actually is not a bad thing to do). A complete set of connectors is about 1600€

Best regards,
Christoph

I do not have so much experience with the Libelles, but things I remember:
- As with all Glasflügels: Check if the connection between the main pins and the wing spar stubs is okay (http://streifly.de/TM201-31.pdf). Repair needs a professional workshop
- check the ailerons for excessive play. That's a quite common issue with the Libelles. In many cases, a fix requires sending the aileron drives to Streifeneder
- check for play in the lift pins. This cannot be removed with washers as with the F, but the pins will have to be replaced
- check the air brake drive for free movement
- check the elevator drive for play and any hidden cracks
- check if all the AD have been taken care of

Best,
Christoph

Le vendredi 16 mars 2018 11:40:19 UTC+1, Senna Van den Bosch a écritÂ*:
> I do have a few hours in the Pegase but they are slightly out of budget at about 5-10k more than I would like to spend.

On www.planeur.net there are 2 Pégase listed for sale, both about 15k.

Le vendredi 16 mars 2018 13:36:10 UTC+1, Tango Whisky a écritÂ*:
> Le vendredi 16 mars 2018 11:40:19 UTC+1, Senna Van den Bosch a écritÂ*:
> > I do have a few hours in the Pegase but they are slightly out of budget at about 5-10k more than I would like to spend.
>
> On www.planeur.net there are 2 Pégase listed for sale, both about 15k.

Just to add: I think that getting spare parts from SN Centrair could be a bit tricky. They are no longer into making sailplanes, so their attitude to customer service in this part of the market may be lacking.

> After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?

In the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201

it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced pilots".. I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 16:02:13 UTC+1 schreef Tom BravoMike:
> > After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?
>
> In the Wikipedia article:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201
>
> it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced pilots". I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

From what I've heard is that performance decreases very fast when you slip it. So you must fly it pretty accurate with the string in the middle.

Due to the shape, the fuselage should be well aligned with the flow to prevent seperations. But from my experience with this glider, it is not really a big issue. What I found more noteable was the inefficency of the rudder and the ailerons, in particular at low airspeeds. When entering a strong thermal, you sometimes need to speed up to get her into the turn. That is clearly not necessary with the LS1-f. But many people like Libelles, too. It certainly looks nice. So to each his own.

The airbrakes of a Std. Libelle are indeed not very effective. But this is something you get used to. It is the same with ASW19 and Std. Cirrus, unless they were modified with a second panel. There are approved modifications for these two models, but not for the Libelle. Some early Std. Libelles had top- and bottom airbrakes which should work better. All LS1 have quite powerful airbrakes, they work even better compared to the double-panel brakes of an ASW19.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:02:09 -0700, Tom BravoMike wrote:

>> After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really
>> considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when
>> buying one, in your opinion?
>
> In the Wikipedia article:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201
>
> it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively
> ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced
> pilots". I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

Pass. Mine has no bad habits when slipping and tends to come out of the
slip at the same speed as it went in, assuming that was the trimmed
speed. It does comes down fast in a full-blooded slip thanks all the drag
generated by pushing that razorback tail boom sideways. This compensates
nicely for the relatively weak airbrakes - but even Libelle brakes scrub
off height quite nicely if you push the nose down.

About the only thing a pilot needs to watch is that a fully held-off, two
point landing is a little trickier than in, say a Pegase, Discus or
Junior because the brakes aren't doing a whole lot after you've flaired.
So, if you're a little quick to lift the nose to the two point attitude
the glider will balloon. A lot of pilots put Libelles down on their main
wheel for this reason, but unless you're asleep behind the stick its easy
enough to correct for the balloon without making a hard landing.

That said, I usually do two pointers with mine because I like the feeling
of both wheels touching the ground simultaneously and staying down. But
it did need a bit of practise at first.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:29:10 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> From what I've heard is that performance decreases very fast when you
> slip it. So you must fly it pretty accurate with the string in the
> middle.
>
True enough, but the same applies to all gliders. You'll soon learn to
fly a Libelle with the string straight because it that: its no harder to
fly straight than any other glider, and it does like the string to be
pointing out slightly in a thermal turn.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:31:34 -0700, christoph.barniske wrote:

> Some early
> Std. Libelles had top- and bottom airbrakes which should work better.
>
Mine is one of these. I've also flown a B series in the distant past and
don't think there's much handling difference between mine with top and
bottom surface brakes and the B-series with single surface ones.

Note that most Std. Libelles are B-series, with foam in the wing skins,
water bags, top-surface brakes and a revised tailplane. The first B-
series was probably s/n 182, but the change-over was gradual, starting
from s/n 85.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

There are a few Std. Libelles that were modified with split flaps: http://libelle.bugwiper.com/tuning.htm (towards the bottom of the page). But this is not available anymore. Libelle with these flaps may not be modified with winglets.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 09:32:44 -0700, christoph.barniske wrote:

> There are a few Std. Libelles that were modified with split flaps:
> http://libelle.bugwiper.com/tuning.htm (towards the bottom of the page).
> But this is not available anymore. Libelle with these flaps may not be
> modified with winglets.

Weren't these the Libelles fitted with after-market wing extensions to
give then a 17m span?

The only 17m Libelle I've seen advertised certainly had the split flaps,
so I'd always assumed the split flaps were fitted because normal weak
Libelle airbrakes became totally inadequate with the extra wing span &
area.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The TN are not available anymore. But from the article I understand that these were two separate changes.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:00:25 -0700, christoph.barniske wrote:

> The TN are not available anymore. But from the article I understand that
> these were two separate changes.

Thanks for that info.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

If you aren't afraid of a little flap.. Look for a PIK-20. Performance to $$ is great!

Op zaterdag 17 maart 2018 00:13:51 UTC+1 schreef Giaco:
> If you aren't afraid of a little flap.. Look for a PIK-20. Performance to $$ is great!

To be honest, I have been keeping an eye out for one for sale but I have yet to find one in ca. 2 months. One of our club members owns a PIK 20D. I haven't seen him yet but might be able to get a test run.

If you can accept a glider that has truly awful performance with wet wings then a Pik 20D might be a choice. It is quite amusing to watch - from another glider. And if you can accept that, and also a glider that doesn't have airbrakes, then buy a Pik 20B.

If you want to make a sensible choice then look at how many examples of older gliders were bought when they were new. The gliders that sold in higher numbers did so for good reasons - people who put their money into new gliders generally put a lot of thought into it - and that is still reflected in the current second hand market.

Perhaps you could get a partnership and save both of you some money.

On 3/17/2018 12:02 AM, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Op zaterdag 17 maart 2018 00:13:51 UTC+1 schreef Giaco:
>> If you aren't afraid of a little flap.. Look for a PIK-20. Performance to $$ is great!
> To be honest, I have been keeping an eye out for one for sale but I have yet to find one in ca. 2 months. One of our club members owns a PIK 20D. I haven't seen him yet but might be able to get a test run.

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 1:01:09 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> I have a similar history (first solo was my club's SZD Junior, then club
> owned Pegase and Discus, then an ASW-20 and my current Std Libelle. Of
> these I still like flying a Junior in winter,

Why do you prefer the Junior in winter?

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 8:02:13 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?
>
> In the Wikipedia article:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201
>
> it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced pilots". I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

Don't believe everything you hear or read. I owned a 201B...really sweet handling, plenty of spoilers, no problem slipping. Sweeeet handling! They have great gelcoat, most likely will not have to worry about it too much. I now own a DG300, as I wanted a little more performance...like it but I still miss the Libelle. Have a good AI give you a pre-purchase inspection, it is always cheap insurance buying anything. The 201 is an excellent first glider providing you can fit into one.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 15:52:30 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 1:01:09 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> I have a similar history (first solo was my club's SZD Junior, then
>> club owned Pegase and Discus, then an ASW-20 and my current Std
>> Libelle. Of these I still like flying a Junior in winter,
>
> Why do you prefer the Junior in winter?

My Libelle is in winter storage, off the airfield, over the winter while
the Juniors are on the airfield and flyable. Due to a physical disability
I can't and won't attempt to fly the club's Discus, Pegase or ASW-24.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 16:26:29 UTC, Steve Leonard wrote:
<snip?
>
> Buy a good plane in a very good trailer!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Steve Leonard

Think 'a very good trailer' is the best advice in this thread

Op maandag 19 maart 2018 07:35:34 UTC+1 schreef :
> On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 16:26:29 UTC, Steve Leonard wrote:
> <snip?
> >
> > Buy a good plane in a very good trailer!
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Steve Leonard
>
> Think 'a very good trailer' is the best advice in this thread

Something I've heard many club members say as well :) usually, they say buy whatever plane is in good condition with FLARM and 8.33 KHz radio with a very good trailer. Performance at a certain budget is usually nearly identical.

I think any of the first few (Cirrus, Libelle, DG-100, LS1f) are great gliders but I'll just have to find the one in best condition for the best price :)

Are you going to fly trailer or glider? With hangar space and couple of outlandings per year I had no problem living with vintage trailer.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 13:36:10 UTC+1 schreef Tango Whisky:
> Le vendredi 16 mars 2018 11:40:19 UTC+1, Senna Van den Bosch a écritÂ*:
> > I do have a few hours in the Pegase but they are slightly out of budget at about 5-10k more than I would like to spend.
>
> On www.planeur.net there are 2 Pégase listed for sale, both about 15k.

I have just flown my first XC in a Pegase on Sunday. Only 160 km but I'm happy. It cruises well at 140-160 km/h. Do you have experience in rigging/derigging the Pegase? I fit in quite well and have plenty of room. Performance is lovely and really gentle and might consider one myself. I hear it's much like the ASW 19?

I bought a Pegase a couple of years ago. I don't have that many flights in it yet but here are my observations. Rigging can be easy or difficult. Much depends on the the surface of the ground. On pavement or flat grass gravel it goes together pretty easily. Uneven terrain can present a problem as everything has to be aligned just right. The wings are "bendy" so it takes greater movement at the tips to get the spars to move than you might be used to. I find the elevator connection "(L'Hotellier) to be a bit of a pain as access is limited. I don't know who designed the access hole for the control connections but it must have been somebody with small hands and arms (Trump?)and the connections are made by feel.

I think you are looking at a substantial increase in performance over the other gliders your are considering and would recommend one if you can afford it. Peg vs. ASW 19? I never flew a 19 and there are conflicting opinions. I moved up from an ASW 15 and the difference, especially at higher speeds is quite noticeable. The Peg handles very well and there are many people who swear by (not at) this glider. I'm becoming one of them. Search this group for Pegase opinions. There are a few threads. Support is a consideration. I'm not exactly sure what is going on but it seems there is a new owner.

Op dinsdag 27 maart 2018 14:07:49 UTC+2 schreef :
> I bought a Pegase a couple of years ago. I don't have that many flights in it yet but here are my observations. Rigging can be easy or difficult. Much depends on the the surface of the ground. On pavement or flat grass gravel it goes together pretty easily. Uneven terrain can present a problem as everything has to be aligned just right. The wings are "bendy" so it takes greater movement at the tips to get the spars to move than you might be used to. I find the elevator connection "(L'Hotellier) to be a bit of a pain as access is limited. I don't know who designed the access hole for the control connections but it must have been somebody with small hands and arms (Trump?)and the connections are made by feel.
>
> I think you are looking at a substantial increase in performance over the other gliders your are considering and would recommend one if you can afford it. Peg vs. ASW 19? I never flew a 19 and there are conflicting opinions.. I moved up from an ASW 15 and the difference, especially at higher speeds is quite noticeable. The Peg handles very well and there are many people who swear by (not at) this glider. I'm becoming one of them. Search this group for Pegase opinions. There are a few threads. Support is a consideration. I'm not exactly sure what is going on but it seems there is a new owner.

There are indeed a couple of Pegase for sale for 15k, but my French is very rusty (thank you Google Translate) and I'm curious how it compares to, say, the Libelle in rigging and flight.

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 06:34:17 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> Op dinsdag 27 maart 2018 14:07:49 UTC+2 schreef :
>> I bought a Pegase a couple of years ago. I don't have that many flights
>> in it yet but here are my observations. Rigging can be easy or
>> difficult. Much depends on the the surface of the ground. On pavement
>> or flat grass gravel it goes together pretty easily. Uneven terrain can
>> present a problem as everything has to be aligned just right. The wings
>> are "bendy" so it takes greater movement at the tips to get the spars
>> to move than you might be used to. I find the elevator connection
>> "(L'Hotellier) to be a bit of a pain as access is limited. I don't know
>> who designed the access hole for the control connections but it must
>> have been somebody with small hands and arms (Trump?)and the
>> connections are made by feel.
>>
>> I think you are looking at a substantial increase in performance over
>> the other gliders your are considering and would recommend one if you
>> can afford it. Peg vs. ASW 19? I never flew a 19 and there are
>> conflicting opinions. I moved up from an ASW 15 and the difference,
>> especially at higher speeds is quite noticeable. The Peg handles very
>> well and there are many people who swear by (not at) this glider. I'm
>> becoming one of them. Search this group for Pegase opinions. There are
>> a few threads. Support is a consideration. I'm not exactly sure what is
>> going on but it seems there is a new owner.
>
> There are indeed a couple of Pegase for sale for 15k, but my French is
> very rusty (thank you Google Translate) and I'm curious how it compares
> to, say, the Libelle in rigging and flight.

I have a fair amount of time in both, flying our club's Pegase 90 for
about a two years, which included 5 attempts at a 300 goal flight and a
team entry with another club member in a Regionals competition.

First point: most Pegs are one of the four 101 subspecies, with differ in
relatively minor structural details and were built with l'Hotellier
control hookups. Our club Pegase is a 90, which is later than the 101s
and has automatic hookup for all controls. Some 101Ds have been retro-
fitted with automatic control hookups: one was bought last year by a club
member. So, if you're offered a Peg 90 or one with automatic control
hookups, if all other things equal, thats the one to go for.

I agree with what mdfadden says about its flight characteristics: the Peg
is very nice to fly and cruises well. Performance is similar to a Discus
1 but I found the Pegase more comfortable than a Discus and it certainly
has a smaller rear blind spot: I could just see the tailplane tips while
flying the Peg but never got near seeing that far round behind me in a
Discus. Its a two pin wing system, so is much easier to rig than any of
the single pin system gliders. The Peg 90 goes together pretty easily.

I've never rigged a Peg with Hotelliers, but know from personal
experience that the difficulty of groping inside a small, black hole
while you hook up the controls is no different from an ASW-19 or 20, and
not much fun to do.

Despite using a single pin rigging system, Libelles are fairly easy to
rig because everything is in clear view just behind the seat, so you
never end up peering into the fuselage through a hole or or back through
the baggage area to work out why the wing isn't going on. Libelles have
light wings, so its never a problem getting help to rig or derig one. The
airbrakes and elevator self-connect and the aileron connections are
simple to use and very easy to check for a correct connection. Feel under
the aileron drive lever and if you can feel end of the spring-loaded
connector pin protruding from the bottom of the connection box, its
correctly connected.

Libelles have light, nicely balanced controls and are generally easy and
enjoyable to fly. They give you all-round vision: I can see my rudder
waggle when I kick it, ever when firmly strapped in. Yes, the airbrakes
are a bit weak, but this is not a problem once you're used to them and is
offset by good slipping behavior: it is easy to enter and exit a slip on
a heading and, unless you deliberately change attitude in the slip,
you'll come out with pretty much the same airspeed as you went in.
Descent rate in a full-blooded slip is better than you'll achieve in a
Peg because that razor-back tail boom creates a lot of drag when driven
sideways through the air. For the same reason you'll quickly learn to
keep the yaw string centered in a cruise. In my experience anyway, the
Libelle is about the most spin-resistent single seat glider I've flown:
I screwed up a zoomed entry to a thermal once in mine by being a second
or two too late to start the push-over and roll into the turn. As the
glider reached the attitude I wanted, I noticed the ASI was on the stall
speed so, because I had plenty of height and everything felt OK, I just
lowered the nose another 10 degrees and waited to see what happened. The
Libelle mushed round 90 degrees while picking up speed and then climved
away in the thermal. I never felt it was going to stall, drop a wing or
spin.

Watchpoints:

- If you're thermalling in a tight turn with a lot of top aileron, you
may find the inner aileron stalls. This gives a sudden roll into the
turn. This feels a bit like a spin departure but without the nose drop.
Simply centre the stick, which immediately unstalls the aileron and go
on climbing in the thermal.

- DO NOT winch launch a Libelle until you've had a thorough briefing from
somebody who is familiar with winching them them. They have a tendency
to snap-rotate as they come off the ground unless you have full forward
trim set and and the stick pushed forward just past the trimmer
setting, i.e. you're just starting to notice the trim spring resisting
you. Do this correctly and the glider will unstick and climb gently
in the same attitude until you have enough airspeed to rotate into full
climb. This needs a fairly small stick movement, after which the launch
has no other surprises.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Hi Senna,

I bought a Pegase right at 50 hours and really love the ship. While the ailerons and elevator is not automatic, my ship was fitted with Wekeslink (spelling?) sleeves on the ailerons and airbrake connections which significantly ease the connection job inside the turtle deck.

I have a one man rigger and handling and rigging the wings by myself is not an issue.

I really the handling of the ship. I am not sure what these go for in Europe.

Good luck!

Wedekind sleeves are a great option, got some here ready to fit my DG 200-17C.
Dave

Op dinsdag 27 maart 2018 23:04:50 UTC+2 schreef Bastoune:
> Hi Senna,
>
> I bought a Pegase right at 50 hours and really love the ship. While the ailerons and elevator is not automatic, my ship was fitted with Wekeslink (spelling?) sleeves on the ailerons and airbrake connections which significantly ease the connection job inside the turtle deck.
>
> I have a one man rigger and handling and rigging the wings by myself is not an issue.
>
> I really the handling of the ship. I am not sure what these go for in Europe.
>
> Good luck!

I'd look for a one man rigging aid as well. I have seen 2 Pegase for sale at € 15k and seems fair, but without 8.33KHz radio, so will need to replace that before I fly anyway.

One thing I did notice in the Pegase is that when I'm in a tight thermal, as I usually do, I can't seem to fly slow enough. For example: turning left requires you to pull the stick backwards and slightly right, but I can't seem to pull it right enough so I keep flying at 85-90 km/h in a thermal and can't go much slower. I do fly at nearly minimum takeoff weight.

Op dinsdag 27 maart 2018 21:39:14 UTC+2 schreef Martin Gregorie:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 06:34:17 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>
> > Op dinsdag 27 maart 2018 14:07:49 UTC+2 schreef :
> >> I bought a Pegase a couple of years ago. I don't have that many flights
> >> in it yet but here are my observations. Rigging can be easy or
> >> difficult. Much depends on the the surface of the ground. On pavement
> >> or flat grass gravel it goes together pretty easily. Uneven terrain can
> >> present a problem as everything has to be aligned just right. The wings
> >> are "bendy" so it takes greater movement at the tips to get the spars
> >> to move than you might be used to. I find the elevator connection
> >> "(L'Hotellier) to be a bit of a pain as access is limited. I don't know
> >> who designed the access hole for the control connections but it must
> >> have been somebody with small hands and arms (Trump?)and the
> >> connections are made by feel.
> >>
> >> I think you are looking at a substantial increase in performance over
> >> the other gliders your are considering and would recommend one if you
> >> can afford it. Peg vs. ASW 19? I never flew a 19 and there are
> >> conflicting opinions. I moved up from an ASW 15 and the difference,
> >> especially at higher speeds is quite noticeable. The Peg handles very
> >> well and there are many people who swear by (not at) this glider. I'm
> >> becoming one of them. Search this group for Pegase opinions. There are
> >> a few threads. Support is a consideration. I'm not exactly sure what is
> >> going on but it seems there is a new owner.
> >
> > There are indeed a couple of Pegase for sale for 15k, but my French is
> > very rusty (thank you Google Translate) and I'm curious how it compares
> > to, say, the Libelle in rigging and flight.
>
> I have a fair amount of time in both, flying our club's Pegase 90 for
> about a two years, which included 5 attempts at a 300 goal flight and a
> team entry with another club member in a Regionals competition.
>
> First point: most Pegs are one of the four 101 subspecies, with differ in
> relatively minor structural details and were built with l'Hotellier
> control hookups. Our club Pegase is a 90, which is later than the 101s
> and has automatic hookup for all controls. Some 101Ds have been retro-
> fitted with automatic control hookups: one was bought last year by a club
> member. So, if you're offered a Peg 90 or one with automatic control
> hookups, if all other things equal, thats the one to go for.
>
> I agree with what mdfadden says about its flight characteristics: the Peg
> is very nice to fly and cruises well. Performance is similar to a Discus
> 1 but I found the Pegase more comfortable than a Discus and it certainly
> has a smaller rear blind spot: I could just see the tailplane tips while
> flying the Peg but never got near seeing that far round behind me in a
> Discus. Its a two pin wing system, so is much easier to rig than any of
> the single pin system gliders. The Peg 90 goes together pretty easily.
>
> I've never rigged a Peg with Hotelliers, but know from personal
> experience that the difficulty of groping inside a small, black hole
> while you hook up the controls is no different from an ASW-19 or 20, and
> not much fun to do.
>
> Despite using a single pin rigging system, Libelles are fairly easy to
> rig because everything is in clear view just behind the seat, so you
> never end up peering into the fuselage through a hole or or back through
> the baggage area to work out why the wing isn't going on. Libelles have
> light wings, so its never a problem getting help to rig or derig one. The
> airbrakes and elevator self-connect and the aileron connections are
> simple to use and very easy to check for a correct connection. Feel under
> the aileron drive lever and if you can feel end of the spring-loaded
> connector pin protruding from the bottom of the connection box, its
> correctly connected.
>
> Libelles have light, nicely balanced controls and are generally easy and
> enjoyable to fly. They give you all-round vision: I can see my rudder
> waggle when I kick it, ever when firmly strapped in. Yes, the airbrakes
> are a bit weak, but this is not a problem once you're used to them and is
> offset by good slipping behavior: it is easy to enter and exit a slip on
> a heading and, unless you deliberately change attitude in the slip,
> you'll come out with pretty much the same airspeed as you went in.
> Descent rate in a full-blooded slip is better than you'll achieve in a
> Peg because that razor-back tail boom creates a lot of drag when driven
> sideways through the air. For the same reason you'll quickly learn to
> keep the yaw string centered in a cruise. In my experience anyway, the
> Libelle is about the most spin-resistent single seat glider I've flown:
> I screwed up a zoomed entry to a thermal once in mine by being a second
> or two too late to start the push-over and roll into the turn. As the
> glider reached the attitude I wanted, I noticed the ASI was on the stall
> speed so, because I had plenty of height and everything felt OK, I just
> lowered the nose another 10 degrees and waited to see what happened. The
> Libelle mushed round 90 degrees while picking up speed and then climved
> away in the thermal. I never felt it was going to stall, drop a wing or
> spin.
>
> Watchpoints:
>
> - If you're thermalling in a tight turn with a lot of top aileron, you
> may find the inner aileron stalls. This gives a sudden roll into the
> turn. This feels a bit like a spin departure but without the nose drop.
> Simply centre the stick, which immediately unstalls the aileron and go
> on climbing in the thermal.
>
> - DO NOT winch launch a Libelle until you've had a thorough briefing from
> somebody who is familiar with winching them them. They have a tendency
> to snap-rotate as they come off the ground unless you have full forward
> trim set and and the stick pushed forward just past the trimmer
> setting, i.e. you're just starting to notice the trim spring resisting
> you. Do this correctly and the glider will unstick and climb gently
> in the same attitude until you have enough airspeed to rotate into full
> climb. This needs a fairly small stick movement, after which the launch
> has no other surprises.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to the Pegase? I really like the Pegase in flight and seating is very comfortable with my height and posture. What scares me about owning a Pegase or Libelle is maintenance. The original manufacturers do not longer exist and could end up paying for maintenance just like the DG and LS contract.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to
> the Pegase?
>
I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting panel.

> What scares me about owning a
> Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
>
Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this tear's
annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a non-approved
(solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard landing, but no
mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed replacement axles + bolts &
washers which arrived within a week.

Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 3:38:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>
> > Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to
> > the Pegase?
> >
> I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
> identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
> rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
> ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
> dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
> fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
> boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting panel.
>
> > What scares me about owning a
> > Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
> >
> Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
> since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this tear's
> annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a non-approved
> (solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard landing, but no
> mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed replacement axles + bolts &
> washers which arrived within a week.
>
> Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The Pegase cockpit has a panel that tilts up with the canopy, which the 19, 20A and early B did not have unless modified.
Jim

Op woensdag 28 maart 2018 13:59:53 UTC+2 schreef JS:
> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 3:38:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> >
> > > Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to
> > > the Pegase?
> > >
> > I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
> > identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
> > rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
> > ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
> > dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
> > fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
> > boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting panel.
> >
> > > What scares me about owning a
> > > Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
> > >
> > Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
> > since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this tear's
> > annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a non-approved
> > (solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard landing, but no
> > mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed replacement axles + bolts &
> > washers which arrived within a week.
> >
> > Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> The Pegase cockpit has a panel that tilts up with the canopy, which the 19, 20A and early B did not have unless modified.
> Jim

How does the canopy open on those models? Is it a tilted canopy to the side? As I am fairly short and can hardly reach the Pegase canopy when I'm strapped tight.

I had a '19 many years ago, a 1978 model, I think.Â* The canopy opened
forward but the panel was fixed to the fuselage.Â* I have seen some
smaller people have a light rope attached or looped over one of the
locking levers to pull down the canopy.Â* It's removed after the canopy
is down and stowed.

On 3/28/2018 6:07 AM, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Op woensdag 28 maart 2018 13:59:53 UTC+2 schreef JS:
>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 3:38:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to
>>>> the Pegase?
>>>>
>>> I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
>>> identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
>>> rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
>>> ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
>>> dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
>>> fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
>>> boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting panel.
>>>
>>>> What scares me about owning a
>>>> Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
>>>>
>>> Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
>>> since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this tear's
>>> annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a non-approved
>>> (solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard landing, but no
>>> mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed replacement axles + bolts &
>>> washers which arrived within a week.
>>>
>>> Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Martin | martin at
>>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>> The Pegase cockpit has a panel that tilts up with the canopy, which the 19, 20A and early B did not have unless modified.
>> Jim
> How does the canopy open on those models? Is it a tilted canopy to the side? As I am fairly short and can hardly reach the Pegase canopy when I'm strapped tight.

--
Dan, 5J

Op woensdag 28 maart 2018 16:24:54 UTC+2 schreef Dan Marotta:
> I had a '19 many years ago, a 1978 model, I think.Â* The canopy opened
> forward but the panel was fixed to the fuselage.Â* I have seen some
> smaller people have a light rope attached or looped over one of the
> locking levers to pull down the canopy.Â* It's removed after the canopy
> is down and stowed.
>
> On 3/28/2018 6:07 AM, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > Op woensdag 28 maart 2018 13:59:53 UTC+2 schreef JS:
> >> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 3:38:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ to
> >>>> the Pegase?
> >>>>
> >>> I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
> >>> identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
> >>> rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
> >>> ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
> >>> dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
> >>> fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
> >>> boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting panel.
> >>>
> >>>> What scares me about owning a
> >>>> Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
> >>>>
> >>> Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
> >>> since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this tear's
> >>> annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a non-approved
> >>> (solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard landing, but no
> >>> mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed replacement axles + bolts &
> >>> washers which arrived within a week.
> >>>
> >>> Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Martin | martin at
> >>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >> The Pegase cockpit has a panel that tilts up with the canopy, which the 19, 20A and early B did not have unless modified.
> >> Jim
> > How does the canopy open on those models? Is it a tilted canopy to the side? As I am fairly short and can hardly reach the Pegase canopy when I'm strapped tight.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Aah that makes it very interesting. If the canopy still opens forward, attaching a string would suit me perfectly :)

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:07:31 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> As I am fairly short and can hardly reach the Pegase canopy when
> I'm strapped tight.
>
My club's Pegase has always had a piece of cord, around 35cm long with a
knot on the bottom, that hangs from the right side canopy latch. That
makes it easy to pull the canopy down far enough to get both hands on the
latch levers to pull it closed and lock it.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 04:59:51 -0700, JS wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 3:38:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:45:59 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>>
>> > Do you happen to have experience with the ASW19 and how they differ
>> > to the Pegase?
>> >
>> I've never flown one, but the Peg, ASW-19 and ASW-20 cockpits are
>> identical for all practical purposes. If you like one, you'll like the
>> rest: if you look carefully under the Peg wing you can see where the
>> ASW-19/20 NACA duct for cockpit ventilation has been filled in. This
>> dates from when Centraire were building ASW-20s under license: the Peg
>> fuselage is a minimally modified ASW-20 one (slightly larger diam tail
>> boom, cockpit ventilation intake on the nose, some have a lifting
>> panel.
>>
>> > What scares me about owning a Pegase or Libelle is maintenance.
>> >
>> Not a Libelle problem. Glasfaser hold the type cert, and have done ever
>> since Glasflugel folded. They give excellent support. During this
>> tear's annuals we discovered damage the the rear u/c axle and a
>> non-approved (solid 20mm shaft) front u/c axle, ovbiously from a hard
>> landing, but no mention in the log book. Glasfaser airmailed
>> replacement axles + bolts &
>> washers which arrived within a week.
>>
>> Situation isn't so clear for the Peg.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> The Pegase cockpit has a panel that tilts up with the canopy, which the
> 19, 20A and early B did not have unless modified.
>
Many (all?) ASW-20Fs, which were license built by Centrair before they
ended the license and started to make the Pegase, had a lifting panel
with the canopy attached to it, though I'm uncertain whether they all had
it or just the later ones. Are there any ASW-20F on your side of the pond?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org